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capricorn

Do you regret for not going to English Medium School?

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I myself was the product of national school education and throughout my 11 years of free education, BM was the main instruction but English just as a subject and cantonese was the medium of conversation between friends.

Back then, my English was not up to par and hardly express in English more so in written test.And when I further my study after secondary school, I found it hard to understand the course which I've taken.

Luckily, I began my English conversation with my young nephew,a baby at that time.Everytime I speak to a baby,(baby talk) I myself feel a bit awkward.

I have a strong will to learn English because one of my aunt's HB laughed at me when he said I couldn't speak English in front of my Singaporean relatives.I was 8 years old then.

I decided to take baby steps.

As I was growing, I watched English movie even though couldn't catch up with the meaning. I turned the volume to max just to listen to their conversation.

Then, I copied lyrics from Walt Disney songs and listen to their pronunciation.

Read to my nephew English storybooks.

Express my feeling and thought in my diary.

Write letters to pen pal from other country;Korea,Hong Kong,Germany,US,S'pore,Australia....

I feel regret because my parents didn't send me to English medium school and it took me more than 20 years to be able to write and express myself a bit.

I have a kid who is in Chinese school.I was devastated when I heard from a radio station that teaching of Mathematics and Science in English are going to revert to mother tongue.

IMHO, English in my generation is quite weak. If politicians in our country still act foolishly and have no strong decision to help the younger generation I believe we'll lose out globally.

Look at those older generation like Mahathir, Anwar, Badawi, Ling Leong Sik ,Samy Vellu even my aunt they are confident when given out speech or debate in front of a crowd.These people are from English medium school.

What is your view? :mellow:

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The standard of language in our generation today is weak mainly due to several factors.

One needs to consider the big changes made by Mahathir when he was Education Minister back in the 80s. He was the one who made the change from an all-English medium to all-Malay because of the word "nationalism". Back then, all our exams and subjects were in English and affiliated with the UK. He removed the LCE (Lower Certificate of Education) and HCE (Higher Certificate of Education), and replaced them with SRP (now PMR) and SPM. You could also assume that throughout his tenure as Education Minister, he made changes to the examination system, rating and syllabus.

Now with all these changes, if you still have good teachers, it's alright. But good and qualified teachers don't live forever and those educated under the British system have gone into retirement and are now being replaced with teachers from our generation - the same generation which has been through language and syllabus changes. Have you looked at textbooks during our parents' time and our time? I have and mind you, they are mind-boggling!!!! Even my HB took one look at our SPM and PMR papers - maths and science plus language - and burst out laughing. Why? Because the questions for PMR were tackled when he was 13 and not 15 and the questions for SPM at 14/15 and not 18. Also he mentioned that the questions are too easy because the answers are written right there and all the students have to do is guess - it's not a good gauge of how much a student has learnt.

I went through the same thing as you did, Capricorn - national school since I was 6 until I was 17 but the one thing that made the difference was the attitude my parents took towards learning language. My dad always insisted that I speak proper English and not Manglish at home. No such thing as "I wan one oso" but instead "I would like one please". Every time I encountered a word that I didn't understand, he would encourage me to find out the meaning for myself instead of asking people or guessing or just not bothering. My parents also started me on English books since I was a little girl - storybooks and then gradually, we went to newspapers, magazines and so forth. Even then, my English was considered weak to some people so when I was 16, I took my own initiative by buying or borrowing novels (instead of short stories) and noting down words that I didn't understand. I also practised writing more often by writing to penpals, and yes, working on novels of my own. Writing was truly a passion of mine back then and it still is...hence the blogging and NNWM (National Novel Writing Month) endeavours.

When I became a librarian in primary school, he was very encouraging and supportive...so much so that I went on to be a librarian in secondary school. My dad used to tease me back then and tell me that I would be happier in a library that married off to some guy - he was right. Till today, I can spent hours on end in a library or bookstore. I can go to a shopping mall and spent all my time in MPH without setting a foot in other stores.

I also mingled with friends from different ethnic groups so speaking in Cantonese was not an option - I had an Indian best friend in school and a Malay mix Chinese best friend together with three other Chinese girls in secondary school, so English was the main spoken language for us.

The problem is not so much with which medium or type of school that you're in but with the system in Malaysia and overall attitude of Malaysians.

The education system has several issues - 1) an examination system that is not transparent and a scoring system that changes every year based on the passing number of students; 2) teachers who are not qualified but taken on to fulfill the growing demand for teachers; 3) a school system that is bogged down with paperwork and other nonsensical things like meetings instead of actually allowing teachers to teach; 4) creativity and innovative teaching ideas are seen as bad; 4) syllabus changes (our textbooks are rewritten...remember the History textbook and how far it detracted from actual history? Think May 13!).

Overall social and cultural mentality - 1) Malaysians are more concerned with other forms of entertainment rather than reading; 2) this in turn affects the quality of written and spoken English in media (typo errors littered everywhere in newspapers and radios), 3) books are too expensive so parents can't be bothered to encourage children to read; 4) too few libraries and even if there are, parents don't see the importance of encouraging children to visit and spend time at the library; 5) parents think that spending money on books is a waste of cash and so forth; 6) if people do read, they read newspapers or soft material like gossip magazines and etc (how many of us have read Lord of the Flies or 1984 or The Prince and other classics?) I can go on and on.

As parents-to-be, our option now is to not repeat the same mistakes that our parents and other people made.

ps: People like Mahathir, Anwar and etc were all educated under the British system. Back then, English was the medium of instruction in ALL schools.

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At least you have parents to read to you when you're young and guide you. That's really lucky. Both of my parents are illiterate so I had to find my source of inspiration to look upon.

I will never let my child to go through what I've gone.Its bygone.

I swear, will guide him.

Mr.Mahathir was once I highly respected but now I feel very dissapointed.

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Well, my grandparents on both sides were illiterate but my dad and mum went on to finish secondary school with Grade 2 and Grade 3 & two certs each (one from UK and one from M'sia) (grades that are very good for average students back then!!!!) and try to further their studies macam diploma and etc. So really, the overall attitude of a person is important because we influence our children and their children. My mother and father have always felt that education is important and they pass that value down to me & my bro. Because my dad had the chance to go overseas with the Air Force for his training, he brought back with him a more "modern" way of looking at education and children. Plus my mum has always been quite forward thinking when it comes to education of her children (other things not so forward la... LOL). Unlike both my grandparents who are very traditional. Can't blame them. Usually people from that generation are like that...

Macam my maternal grandmother. She's a typical kampung lady with old school thinking - always pushing her daughters to get married and she would sideline them when it comes to inheritance. My uncles ended up with the house even though my aunt paid for it. Then when this attitude continued with my uncle and his children, he actually wanted my cousin to go out and work after finishing her Form 6 on the pretext that he didn't have enough money to send her to public uni (even though she got through her Form 6 with flying colours and got accepted into UPM) BUT he was willing to spend money to send his younger sons to private college. Made my mum very pissed and she spent hours and days talking some sense into him. Now my cousin is very successful at her chosen career so much so that her company offered her a job here in Switzerland!

It's already too late to be mad at our parents or our lack of opportunities - we can only learn from their mistakes and successes. My parents thought me a lot about many things - a result of a close bond - even till today!

Hey, remember this - if you hadn't persevered on in the past, you wouldn't be able to hold your head up high and say that you did all this from your own effort now, would you? Sometimes it is true - struggles build character. :smile:

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I am just the opposite. I wished that I could read and write Chinese! I was also a product of the 'Kebangsaan' school where Malay is the medium for all subjects. I am now what you would term a 'banana'. Heh!

I would not say my english is very good but it's passable by most standards. Like meiteoh I also attribute this to reading lots and lots of english material. Books - novels or short stories. Magazines and what not. When I was still studying my level of english was higher than what i have now due to the fact that I read more back then.

It's funny to know that meiteoh likes to write. I used to like to write too but I never really finished any of my so-called novels that I started writing. I wonder if meiteoh shared the same experience? I had lots of ideas for stories, believe you me. Even now I still have lots of ideas. My problem is trying to flesh it out completely.

I would start. End up somewhere in the middle and find myself without any ideas of how to continue. Then I would leave it for some time and by the time I got back to it, I would have lost the initial storyline! And so the 'novel' would forever linger in limbo. Hahaha.

If any of you believe that it's easy to write a story. Most would say, "Aiyah! Write story only mah. Just write anything lar. You make it all up anyway!" But it's not that simple at all. Try it and you would truly appreciate good writers that can come up with gripping tales that keep you turning the pages!

If you have really tried it and found out firsthand how difficult it is, you would think twice and thrice before buying pirated materials, be it books or movies. People work very, very hard to get those good stories to you. The least you could do is support them.

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I am just the opposite. I wished that I could read and write Chinese! I was also a product of the 'Kebangsaan' school where Malay is the medium for all subjects. I am now what you would term a 'banana'. Heh!

hehe me too. i cant read & write chinese. i hardly speak mandarin also, only cantonese.

i think i am worst than banana. cos the only language i knew is cantonese (just can only speak), malay & english (both also below average :sad: )

if i was from those chinese school, at least got "below average" std for chinese language also good lor.

my friend always tease me whenever i asked them to translate for me, & stranger will give me a strange look when i told them i cant read also. :dash2:

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Hey..I am like daddyo too. A 'banana'..haha. I think most Chinese educated (or Kebangsaan but spoken language usually is cantonese or mandarin) may think that being in an English educated is good. But hey..there is another news for all of you. An English educated (or Kebangsaan but spoken language is English) will think the other way round too. I was in a kebangsaan school (previous Convent) but my family speaks english and most of my friends also speaks english. Hence, I did not feel the need to learn Chinese.

However, I wished I knew how to speak Mandarin and write and read Chinese language. Sometimes the aunty and uncles who are Chinese educated look at me weirdly because I can only speak English. I only learnt how to speak a bit of Cantonese in my university years. Sometimes I do not feel I can fit into any group. I realise that English speaking people and Chinese speaking people talks a lot on different kind of topics. Topics that English speaking people chats about may not be a Chinese speaking cup of tea.

But I do agree with Capricon and meiteoh on our government pertaining our education system. My FH is from a Chinese educated background and he was persistant to learn english when he was Form 4 (thank goodness..if not how to attract me leh? hahahahahaha....). So we did discuss and said that in future, our children can go to Kebangsaan school but maybe take Mandarin classes too. At the same time their 'mummy' can learn also..haha. Forced to speak to children in English and Mandarin.

Whatever it is, I feel both languages has its own advantages. Hence, if its possible, we should be literate in both :). Easier said than done especially for people my age. Old already some more want to learn new language kah??hahaha. lazy la...haha

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hi capricorn,

i believe most people can achieve what they have set to achieve through immense hardwork and perserverance. Most importantly in the case of learning a language, you must not shy away from making mistakes and having people joked about them, as people are proned to do so. I remembered the times when i tried to speak mandarin (i was also a product of the national school at both the primary and secondary school levels) with my friends and i ended up "supplying lauging gas" most of the time. but at the end of the day, although they may laughed, they also helped me with the right pronunciations of the words i used in my conversations (u know how chinese words can be misunderstood by just missing a "twig" in its pronunications).

i've taught English to adults and children before on a part time basis and my observations revealed to me that most of my students have the aim to learn and improve English, but they do not know specifically in which area and their purpose for learning / improving their English language skills. And most of them i find, tend to translate directly the message from their first language (e.g mother tongue) to English which is not the case. Mandarin itself does not come with alot of rules like English. Therefore, translating directly does not help you to string English words together. It is usually the rules that complicate the language most. You need to know the purpose / objective of using the language, where and when it is used and that's how the rules are applied. but mind you, there are many types of "Englishes" for specific purposes (i.e. English for Business, English for Laws, English for Engineering, etc). Then there is the American English and the British English also.

just like meiteoh and daddyo, to be able to know how the rules are applied, is to be exposed to them through intensive reading. And when you read, do not just read, but try to understand the message conveyed. if you don't understand, simple, just ASK. for beginners, i won't encourage you to read novels. start with short passages / news articles. pick up words you don't understand and look it up in the dictionary. There is a convenient way of reading a newspaper article and looking up a dictionary which is the online method. My all time favourite online dictionary being the American one (www.dictionary.com) :lol: though it is very American.

In my personal opinion, as I am donig a Masters in English Language Teaching, i personally find it easier to understand the language used in the journals produced by Americans than the Brits although I am doing my masters from a Brit uni haha. :oops:

And also, i definitely do better with fiction writing than non-fiction writing simply because i am dreamy :whistling:

take your time capricorn, it is never too late to learn something new in your life regardless of what age you are in. I am thinking of taking up mandarin classes after my masters and I hope it will be soon. Haha.

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Me considered Eng ed but I learn Chineseas in Mandarin up to secondary level. Since secondary I never use Chinese language to write but only for speaking only. So I mostly I don't understand much of the news in chinese papers- too "chim" for me. hee hee...

But seriously I got no regrets being Eng ed lor. As I see today's world where you work in, you are required to speak and write English. Presentation to management also in English. If you can speak perfect English, pple will look up to you. Management will also give you higher chance for promotion or appraisal.

But among my chinese ed in laws, they prefer my son to go to Chinese school in future. Say now every company is eyeing on China and the trend now is speak and learn Chinese. But I still disagree with them in the context that even Mat Salleh company trying to get into China market but if you are not well verse in English, how are you going to communicate with your top management (they mostly are ka ki lang - mat salleh too). I got very pissed off when my in laws want my son to go for chinese school in future. Their statement already made my blood boil.

Also according to my personal observation and experience, Chinese ed tend to obey without asking question. They don't talk and interact much. No opinion and keep everything in the heart. I would prefer Eng ed style, speak their mind out and if dont understand, ask.

Sorry no offence to chinese ed here...thats my personal experience saja la.

JL

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Hi jaylow, this is actually on of the ‘hot topics’ between my hubby and me. I’m pro-chinese ed, while he is pro-english ed. I went to a Chinese convent school, not very common in Malaysia. Anyway, he has similar standpoint like you, that Chinese educated can hardly speak proper English, and they are also generally very narrow-minded and overly obedient.

But have you considered the current scenario in government schools? Obviously international school is a totally different league, but unless if you could afford it and wouldn’t mind paying for it, else currently your choice is national school, Chinese supplemented national school & Chinese private school. Not gonna cover Chinese private school here.

Ok, like what Mei & Daddy have mentioned, the national school students are now taught by the teachers who received Malay education like we did, so most likely English is just another subject in school, apart from the fact that you have one language less to learn, there is not much competitive advantage as to why national school kids can master English better than Chinese school kids, just IMHO.

As for attitude, I’ve heard a lot of Chinese parents in KL now prefer to send their kids to Chinese schools due to competitiveness, not necessarily a good thing, there’s so much kiasu-ism, from kids, to their parents and even their teachers. But healthy competition definitely help in motivating your kids to want to learn more. As for attitude, I think family plays an essential role, you can’t just blame the school for how your kids turn out, you have the responsibilities too, in fact more than schools. My bro & I are extremely curious about everything, and like to argue/criticize on every thing that we observe. Yes, by generalization, Chinese school kids tend to mind their own business only and do not have a personal view on most things, I complain about my junior staffs of that too, but it does not have to be.

My argument for Chinese school is very simple, I do not want my kids to lose the opportunity to learn Chinese, do you have any idea how difficult it is to pick up this language even if you want to, as it is very very different from any other languages. I would not want them to miss out what I’ve enjoyed, the ability to read classical Chinese novels, understand the Chinese history and culture better etc.

As for English, yes, I totally agree on its importance, look at what medium we use in this forum, but, it is however a more ‘user friendly’ language IMHO, that you can pick it up later in your life. My English used to be terrible, but I made up my mind to improve when I was in secondary school, when I start to force myself to read out loud when I read English novels, and speak to myself in English (scary?). Later on, once my pronunciation and vocabulary improve slightly, I started speaking to others in English, making tonnes of mistakes, but at least I gained confidence and improve throughout the way.

Unless if you are very talented in languages, I realized that it is not easy to master more than 1 language, at least that’s the case for me, now that I used English more extensively than Chinese, I find myself not be able to quote sayings or idioms easily anymore. Writing is an even more painful process, that I struggle to write most of the words. I guess it’s an argument between proficiency and quantity. Do you want to be really good in just 1 language, or would you want to be average in 2 or more languages? Which one give you more competitive advantage? Most brits I worked with was amased that I can speak 5 languages/dialects, while most of them only know English.

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I just have to say something - I HATE the new server!!!! It takes bloody forever to LOAD!!!!!

Lets clarify something - english education refers to an all-English medium of instruction, something you'll probably only find in international schools (IS). I think national schools or Chinese-ed is what we're talking about...unless of course some of you folks came from IS. Then ignore this lame attempt. :lol:

Daddyo, yes, sometimes I have the same problem. Writer's block. In fact, I've been having it since I got married. I started writing when I was 17 - I finished three out of a four-part saga, a couple of novelettes and two NNWM attempts (50K words). My best so far is a science-fiction/fantasy genre which is over 20 chapters and I'm stuck in the middle (Chapter 16) with over 50K words.

A lot of people, including my brother (before he met my SIL who is a journalist) thought that writing is easy but if they see the amount of research I had to do and etc just to make the story plausible, they would think twice. My first ever novel, a prequel to the saga, was set during the Vietnam War and I spent weeks researching Vietnamese culture, language, war accounts and so forth just to make sure it was realistic. On top of that, I would also have a character chart of some sorts with bios and personality traits of characters, who I model them on and a summary of their growth in my novels. Then, would I only start with the plot itself - what happens in what chapter and so forth. The writing itself is not a problem - it's everything leading up to the writing and what occurs after (editing). Ohboy...that's where all the fun takes place!!!

I really ought to get back to it now that I have more time but then there are other things like spinning, knitting, cooking and etc. :lol:

Elyssa, sfgoh, davinci, to be honest, I never saw the need to learn Mandarin because I don't speak the language at home, or at work - in fact, I don't even speak it socially. I use Cantonese and Hokkien more than I use Mandarin. My ILs find it strange because in France, everyone speaks French - Gauls, Asians, Arabs, blacks, etc - whereas for us, we're segmented according to language.

I'll play the Devil's Advocate and say that whatever language you choose to converse in - be it for work, school or socially - do it well. There is no "this language is better" and so forth. It all depends on where you are. Like here in Switzerland, there is no point in learning Mandarin when people here only speak (Swiss) German, French and Italian. Most of the time, they work with European counterparts and if the other person on the phone doesn't know (Swiss) German, French or Italian, they switch to English. In fact, like myself - people consider me a native speaker yet I cannot find a full-time job because I'm not fluent in French.

Also, stick to one language at one time - don't be a hero and try to learn a few languages at the same time!!! My Filipino classmate has been bugging me to learn Mandarin because she would like some company but I keep telling her that learning two languages at the same time is not a good idea. You'll mix everything up and it's bad! Concentrate on one first and then when you're done, move onto the next level. And she knows it firsthand - she's learning French and German and mixes everything up! When she's here (in the French speaking part), her brain gets confused and she ends up mixing German with French in the same sentence and people just stare at her. When she's back at home (in the German/French speaking part, she speaks German and people stare at her funny because it's not Swiss German!).

To be honest, only my HB makes fun of me when I speak French (but that's because I'm married to him). When I speak French to my ILs, HB's friends and even to the shopkeepers, they are always extra friendlier and smiley even though I know for a fact that my French is broken or the pronunciation is off. People don't laugh because they know it's hard. Even French children have problems grasping the language - the grammar (like German) is much more complicated than English. Like past tense - in English, we have two types (past simple and past participle eg broke and broken) but in French, they have over three types of past tense (simple, imparfait, proche, etc, etc). In English, there are two types of verbs, regular and irregular - it's easy if you use it often. But in French, they have three types of verbs, three types of gender attached to words (for example, a bus is masculine and a car is feminine, the weather is masculine and so forth). It's very different from English.

AND I tell people back at home - if your English is weak, don't learn French. Why? Because a lot of English words find its roots in French or are from French - attaché, organisation, annual, and so forth). So it's easier for people to find the connection. Also Roman-based languages are easier to learn if you're already fluent in one, just like how people always say that if you speak Mandarin and write Chinese, it's easier to learn Japanese compared to someone like me who doesn't know written Chinese.

Besides, unless you're working with a French company, there is no need to learn that language. Learn a language that you will use, otherwise it'll just go to waste. Like my mum. She learnt Japanese when she was 21 but never used it after she finished her classes so all that knowledge just died over time. Today, she doesn't even remember the grammar structure or how to write Japanese anymore.

Jaylow, a point to note regarding the question asking thing - my FIL is a professor at a local university and he lectures on mechanics. There are a number of Asians in his class - most of them are international students from China and what-not. And his biggest headache is getting them to talk. They never ask questions, they never interact with their French classmates...they are always quiet and by themselves. So it's not so much the education process only but the culture that they grew up in.

When I was teaching back at home in the uni and college, it is the same. Whether the student is from national school or Chinese ed, their English is weak and they are always quiet in class. Even if they don't know, they won't ask. It took me at least two months to get half of them to start opening up and usually, the problem is always the same - culture shock. In school, students are drilled to listen and vomit out. But when they go to colleges and universities, they are shocked - they discover that the spoon-feeding era is over and that they are expected to learn on their own. It's like helping a baby walk, being its crutch and then when the baby is used to the crutch, you take it away and ask the baby to walk on her/his own.

Qiqi, there are those who speak one language but aren't even good at it. So really, it all depends on the person. :smile:

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I went to Kebangsaan school because my dad is Peranakan (he can't speak or understand Chinese). It would have been nice to learn Chinese but I am glad how things turned out.

I live in The Netherlands now where European languages are more important than Mandarin. It's also a country where you are expected to constantly voice out your opinions and debate everything (even if what you're saying is ridiculous). They prefer someone who speaks than one who says nothing so I am thankful everyday that I attended a Kebangsaan school in an urban(ish) area (Petaling Jaya). I can see the difference between myself and Chinese-educated students (who are sort of made fun off... not because of they can't speak English well but because they are always so passive and never contribute to the project etc.) at my university.

I still want to learn some Chinese though! When you go to Chinese restaurants here and order in Chinese, they give you the best haha (big oysters, freshest fish... you get the idea) !

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Not being able to speak cantonese is a real pain in the a**. People always think I'm a foreigner because of that. I know it sounds superficial but I just think of how much $$$ i could have saved if i spoke cantonese to builders, furniture salespeople and any other chinese speaking salespeople.

I'm also living with an 'English language snob' which gives me an inferiorty complex about my English. Although it gives me a chance to improve my English, I still feel so inferior sometimes. So, I can't speak cantonese and mandarin, my hokkien is really poor and my English is below average. So what am I? I don't know.

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Saffron, Y'know, a lot of people would expect that my HB speak to me in French when we're at home but we don't. Why? Because he wants to practice his English and he knows that because he speaks French all the time, his English is getting crappier by the day. Of course, sometimes - like once a week - I talk to him solely in French BUT my MIL and my HB use me to practice their English!

I'll admit that sometimes I get very ticked off when I see typos or when HB makes a mistake but my HB never feels inferior to me - we both have our strengths and weaknesses and we have learnt a long time ago that instead of feeling inferior or beneath our partner, we are equal partners in our life journey, be it our marriage or lifelong learning. In fact, we make it a practice to correct each other - me his English, him my French.

Meringue, even the Chinese/Asian folks here speak French...unless I start the ball rolling. So far, only the boss at the HK Asian store speaks to me in Cantonese but otherwise, she's fluent in French and Swiss German (HB and I overheard her scolding someone in Swiss German and even my HB was impressed!).

For me, I don't know - I'd learn Mandarin but it's not a priority for me at the moment. Even until today, I still feel that I'd want my children to learn Cantonese and Hokkien first because that's my mother tongue. I had a really hard time trying to explain to my stepFIL that just because I'm Chinese ethnically, it doesn't mean I should speak Mandarin. In fact, I have always felt that my mother tongue is Hokkien and Cantonese. I think I'm weird in that sense. LOL!

Chels, yes, it is possible to learn a language just from media but it doesn't mean that you'll be fluent. I learnt Cantonese from movies but I can't say that my Cantonese is really good (like the radio deejays back in Hong Kong or KL - did you know that the Canton deejays have to go through deejay training in Hong Kong?). Just like many Malaysians today. We learn English in school, we watch English movies, listen to English songs yet I see elementary mistakes like "its" versus "it's".

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Meringue, even the Chinese/Asian folks here speak French...unless I start the ball rolling. So far, only the boss at the HK Asian store speaks to me in Cantonese but otherwise, she's fluent in French and Swiss German (HB and I overheard her scolding someone in Swiss German and even my HB was impressed!).

For me, I don't know - I'd learn Mandarin but it's not a priority for me at the moment. Even until today, I still feel that I'd want my children to learn Cantonese and Hokkien first because that's my mother tongue. I had a really hard time trying to explain to my stepFIL that just because I'm Chinese ethnically, it doesn't mean I should speak Mandarin. In fact, I have always felt that my mother tongue is Hokkien and Cantonese. I think I'm weird in that sense. LOL!

Dutch is the national language but English is widely spoken as well (as NL is a small country and Dutch is not widely used out of NL. The reason why the economy in NL is good is because NL is easy to adapt for international companies). The Dutch-Chinese speak Dutch (they have to) but they speak Chinese amongst themselves. I would say that the most visible immigrant group at the moment is Moroccans. However, I wouldn't be surprised if East Asians will be targeted next because the numbers are increasing (mostly Chinese from China) and they are doing well (I have no idea how these people make money..there's this lousy cacat new salon near my apartment which barely anyone goes to and the Chinese owners drives a new 5-serie BMW!) which will eventually, I'm sure, piss people off. Also, of course Chinese culture and Dutch culture are very different. The only thing working for East Asians is that they keep to themselves and don't make a nuisance (unlike the Moroccans..of course all generalizing here la) but that does not mean they are anymore integrated than the Moroccans or Turks.

The Dutch don't see me as Chinese (I DO look Chinese so sometimes I get 'ni hao' which iritates the shite out of me haha but when they know I'm Malaysian, it's like they turn off the Chinese part or something..like they're even surprise I want to celebrate Chinese New Year bla bla).

Incidently, I sat for part of the compulsory integration exam today and it's a joke. I swear, they really do think immigrants are retards. I'm not exaggerating... The questions were quite ridiculous la ( Is the sun warm or cold? Does a car run on milk or benzine? Does a baby drink out of a bottle or a glass?) .... Guess how much the integration rubbish costs? 4400 euro! *sorry, a bit bengang at the moment*

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Saffron, Y'know, a lot of people would expect that my HB speak to me in French when we're at home but we don't. Why? Because he wants to practice his English and he knows that because he speaks French all the time, his English is getting crappier by the day. Of course, sometimes - like once a week - I talk to him solely in French BUT my MIL and my HB use me to practice their English!

I'll admit that sometimes I get very ticked off when I see typos or when HB makes a mistake but my HB never feels inferior to me - we both have our strengths and weaknesses and we have learnt a long time ago that instead of feeling inferior or beneath our partner, we are equal partners in our life journey, be it our marriage or lifelong learning. In fact, we make it a practice to correct each other - me his English, him my French.

Haha... what you said about your HB and MIL is funny. Deep down I know that it's good that I'm learning British English but I can't help feeling embarrassed sometimes. One good thing about learning British English is that I get to learn more about English humour because I get to watch some British sitcoms that you can't get in msia, like the mighty boosh and the league of gentlemen.

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Saffron, don't worry. It happens to me too. Sometimes I feel embarassed but on the other hand, I feel very encouraged when people just politely smile and answer me anyway. Like you, at least now I can appreciate French movies and animations which are not available back at home! :smile:

Chels, I guess this is where we differ. For me, learning how to speak or read in order to communicate is not enough. I mean why be average when you can be good/better at it?

Meringue, I haven't had the "ni hao" yet - people always think I'm Thai instead but they speak to me in French and in France, people just assume that I'm French because there are a lot of French-born Asians. I remember boarding an Emirates flight from Dubai to Paris and the air hostesses all greeted me in French even though I was one of the few Asians on board. It made me feel...good, actually (for the lack of a better word). It's hard to explain but HB said it best - "You don't have to be white to be French."

Well, I won't be surprised if the Swiss integration exam is the same (the same Filipino friend had her ILs ask her if she was happy being married to her HB because she has TV, clothes and a fridge now!!!!!) but I won't be sitting for it. The French one I know is tough - or so HB and his family says. Apart from being fluent, you need to be familiar with French customs, history and culture (this includes music, films, food, etc). HB never mentioned it before but I guess this is one of the many reasons why he would like me to hold onto my M'sian passport and just be contented with a French PR (should we go back to France for good).

Wei, 4400 euros for an exam!!!!!!!!!! OMIGOD...what do they think immigrants do? Print money?

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The integration exam is compulsory even if you don't want a Dutch passport.

I know what you mean about it feeling nice when the air stewardess spoke to you in French.

Luckily, I arrived just before they changed the law so my course is subsidised by the townhall. I only paid 270 euro. Immigrants arriving after 31.12.2006 have to pay for the course by themselves (or not go for one but they MUST pass the exam within 3-5 years ; depending where they come from). Lousy courses (like mine) cost between 4-5000 euro. Proper ones (where you actually learn grammar and how to speak) will be at least 8000. The Dutch integration exam also has a cultural component. You need to know certain aspects of Dutch culture, how the Dutch political system works ... I haven't gone for that one yet :/

I speak to the Dutchman in English because neither of us have the patience haha.

chels: so true about the chinese menu! I got it once! For once, no gloopy,starchy sweet sauce on top of my dishes!

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Chels, I guess this is where we differ. For me, learning how to speak or read in order to communicate is not enough. I mean why be average when you can be good/better at it?

considering the fact that we have lived with a pretty screwed-up education system in this country, it is undoubtedly difficult (or rather near impossible) for most of us to master at least 2 languages for all 4 basic skills - reading, writing, speaking and listening. the malay language that was emphasized in our school syllabuses and curriculum, were not so much used by a vast majority of non-malays in the country except to communciate with the government officials. mahathir's idealogy to make the malay language a prominent language recognized internationally (like german, french, japanese) has taken a toll as the language is not even used anywhere else except in indon or a small minority in SG. And now, every race wants their own language / dialect to be used to all subjects in schools.

Unlike in SG. their education syllabuses and curriculum are structured in a way that all subjects are taught in English and the people's respective mother tongue(s) is the 2nd subject taught after English (which is optional according to their preferences). I've always admired people who can read/write/speak/listen in 2 languages namely English and Mandarin and i've always strived to achieve that myself. Though it's hard, but like chels, starting with speaking and reading ... ad listening is good enough to communciate your thoughts through. Afterall, speaking the same language binds two communicators and it's more convenient for things to get done (esp in the case of chinaman contractors) :dry:

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Not being able to speak cantonese is a real pain in the a**. People always think I'm a foreigner because of that. I know it sounds superficial but I just think of how much $$ i could have saved if i spoke cantonese to builders, furniture salespeople and any other chinese speaking salespeople.

I'm also living with an 'English language snob' which gives me an inferiorty complex about my English. Although it gives me a chance to improve my English, I still feel so inferior sometimes. So, I can't speak cantonese and mandarin, my hokkien is really poor and my English is below average. So what am I? I don't know.

Wow! So many 'banana' pp here. :lol:

I never place a priority reading and writing much in Mandarin but speaking ,which I feel is more important.

E.g

When I eat at hawker stalls, I usually ask them, whats the menu for today instead of reading the many strokes,lines,square box just to form a word :wacko3: . And they will tell me 'wan tan mee','cheng tong','laksa',char kuey tew' and.........

When you're working in a company, be it small or big, English is still the no.1 language. Not to mention, a tea lady will definitely have the extra advantages if she is able to speak and understand English.Perhaps she will hold a higher post like " Chief Cleaner" :cool:

Let say in our country there are English Medium School,National School, Chinese Medium School and Tamil Medium School and they are free, where would you like to send your kid to?

My answer is definetly English Medium School :oops:

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Let say in our country there are English Medium School,National School, Chinese Medium School and Tamil Medium School and they are free, where would you like to send your kid to?

My answer is definetly English Medium School :oops:

i still will send my kids to Chinese Medium School, until std 6 lar. after then change to National school lor.

at least they be able to learn 3 languages at the beginning.

i do heard students from chinese school abit shy or seldom ask Q in the class. but guess what, during my A-Levels at local college,

the top student is from chinese school, & the he & others (from chinese school also) were the most active students in my class (voice alot of qs & opinions). even during my secondary school, since only 5% is transferred from Chinese school, alot of them have terrific english std.

my FH pula only study chinese until std 6, then transferred to national school, haha his english & mandarin is terrible. but at least he is better then me, cos i have to rely on him alot on chinese/mandarin. tat y i never like to vist china/taiwan.

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Chels, I guess this is where we differ. For me, learning how to speak or read in order to communicate is not enough. I mean why be average when you can be good/better at it?

considering the fact that we have lived with a pretty screwed-up education system in this country, it is undoubtedly difficult (or rather near impossible) for most of us to master at least 2 languages for all 4 basic skills - reading, writing, speaking and listening. the malay language that was emphasized in our school syllabuses and curriculum, were not so much used by a vast majority of non-malays in the country except to communciate with the government officials. mahathir's idealogy to make the malay language a prominent language recognized internationally (like german, french, japanese) has taken a toll as the language is not even used anywhere else except in indon or a small minority in SG. And now, every race wants their own language / dialect to be used to all subjects in schools.

Unlike in SG. their education syllabuses and curriculum are structured in a way that all subjects are taught in English and the people's respective mother tongue(s) is the 2nd subject taught after English (which is optional according to their preferences). I've always admired people who can read/write/speak/listen in 2 languages namely English and Mandarin and i've always strived to achieve that myself. Though it's hard, but like chels, starting with speaking and reading ... ad listening is good enough to communciate your thoughts through. Afterall, speaking the same language binds two communicators and it's more convenient for things to get done (esp in the case of chinaman contractors) :dry:

Maybe I should be clearer.

If the goal of learning is a language is just to communicate with any Tom, Dick and Harry, then yes, a lot of us have achieved that. But fluency in language can take you far - especially in your career. Writing a diplomatic email without offending anyone, reports, formal letters and so forth...all these things take skill - a skill that many people don't have. I have seen broken grammar and incorrect spelling plus incorrect use of tone in resumes and cover letters written by fresh gradutes and almost every time, they get rejected. Ever read a cover letter with the words "I want this job because I'm good at it and because I have skills and years of learning. I graduate from *insert uni* last year with *insert full title of degree* and blah, blah"? Yes, if I was a simple man or your friend, that sentence is fine. I understand you well, honestly. In fact, as a regular person, I know that you want the job because you are skilled and have the right education backing you. But as a prospective employer, should I hire someone who writes a job cover letter like that?

Also, if your job is dependent on language proficiency like publishing, linguistics, translation, sub-editing, copywriting, journalism and so forth, it is important to be the best that you can be in that industry, otherwise you would not go very far.

Perhaps I'm being hard on people in general but I've listen to radio news copies, read articles in newspapers and it shocks me to see the number of errors made by people who are supposed to be proficient in that language. On top of that, many people justify these errors and/or pick them up as well. It's...sad considering that I believe that Malaysians are capable of so much more if they would only try.

Starting with the basics is good but when you reach your basic goal, don't just end there. Try to be better. That's all I'm saying - that people shouldn't be just contented with the basics.

To be fair, we can't blame the education system alone - people themselves have to want to make the effort to constantly improve and better themselves, parents should help out and so forth. It pains me to have the public bash teachers & the government alone when they need to understand and accept that they too play an important role in educating themselves and young people today.

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Wow! So many 'banana' pp here. :lol:

I never place a priority reading and writing much in Mandarin but speaking ,which I feel is more important.

E.g

When I eat at hawker stalls, I usually ask them, whats the menu for today instead of reading the many strokes,lines,square box just to form a word :wacko3: . And they will tell me 'wan tan mee','cheng tong','laksa',char kuey tew' and.........

When you're working in a company, be it small or big, English is still the no.1 language. Not to mention, a tea lady will definitely have the extra advantages if she is able to speak and understand English.Perhaps she will hold a higher post like " Chief Cleaner" :cool:

Let say in our country there are English Medium School,National School, Chinese Medium School and Tamil Medium School and they are free, where would you like to send your kid to?

My answer is definetly English Medium School :oops:

When companies hire Chinese for sales and marketing jobs, normally they want Chinese who can speak Chinese. If you have your own business it's also better that you know Chinese. For daily communication, Cantonese is the most practical language to use because almost every Chinese seem to know Cantonese. I really lose out big time in this area especially when it comes to buying stuff and ordering food! I'm a lot worse than you, I can't even say ''What's the menu today'' in Cantonese, if the hawker stall doesn't have english words, I can only 'guess' what they are selling. I hardly ever watch any cantonese or mandarin TV series or movies because I'm just not interested, even if it's got English subtitles, I'm still not interested. Ironically, all my family members can speak Cantonese, not only I'm a banana in public, I'm also a banana in my own family.

If I had a choice, I would still send my kid to English medium school as well. At the end of the day, it's up to individual preference.

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