Chinese Dowries

[MarkG 0]

Hi

I am Englishman marrying a Chinese Malaysian in London UK soon.

Her mother is saying that I need to give her money!

My wife to be parent's are seperated - is it right that the mother should make this claim?

I am paying for the whole wedding including the Reception for 90 guests etc

I believe this to be a strange request in this day and age. Has this not died out now?

Please help!

Thanks

Mark

[aisumomo 0]

Dear Mark,

It is a chinese custom to provide dowry to the parents of the bride, usually its the mother that decides the terms.

This custom is still widely practiced, not entirely for the benefit of $$ but more so for what it represents and to show that their daughter is married off well.

im afraid there isnt much you can do as its close to imposible to ask her parents to set aside this custom.

However negotiating is possible unless her mother is standing firm on the request.

Dont take to heart as its not all about $$ but more a part of our culture.

Meiteoh did face similar problems too when she married a foreigner.

maybe you could approach her on understanding more about this particular custom.

[MarkG 0]

Hi

I am Englishman marrying a Chinese Malaysian in London UK soon.

Her mother is saying that I need to give her money!

My wife to be parent's are seperated - is it right that the mother should make this claim?

I am paying for the whole wedding including the Reception for 90 guests etc

I believe this to be a strange request in this day and age. Has this not died out now?

Please help!

Thanks

Mark

Dear Aisumomo

Thank you for your reply.

She is asking for £3,999 - that is about 20,000RM . Her daughter has lived in the UK for 5 years

My fiancee says I must keep her happy. She has chosen this amount and wants it paid in £UK sterling.

Having decided 3999 is a lucky number it is a pity I can not give it to her in RM !!

I thought ang pao should end in an even number not an odd number.

Thanks

Mark

[juvannise 0]

Hi Mark,

this is one of the chinese tradition i'm afraid. some of the chinese believe that '9' is always the best for wedding since it means forever or long.... i think u wouldnt want her to ask from you 9999 right?

anyway, like aisumomo said, its better for you to approach Meiteoh for more info.

[aisumomo 0]

well different folks, different strokes.

u can checkout what other couples are paying and whats being discussed on dowry and related stuff at these links:

http://www.malaysiabrides.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=595

pin kam = dowry in chinese

http://www.malaysiabrides.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=458

GDL/guo dai lai = the engagement(??) ceremony, where the groom bring gifts, cash n other customary stuff to ask for the brides hand in marriage.

btw RM20k+ is seriously a large sum x.x

[meiteoh 0]

Hi Mark!

Nice to see you again - just the other day, I was going through the registration threads and wondered how things are going with your wedding preparations.

I see you have reached the "pin kam" or Chinese dowry hurdle. Unfortunately, because of the notoriety of the Indian dowry, many people in other parts of the world assume that the Chinese dowry is like a payment made for a purchase. Even my own MIL thought that when my HB and my mother was discussing the issue of dowry in 2007. It so happened that she called my HB while my mum and him were discussing about it and when he mentioned the word "dowry", she flew into a fit and demanded that my HB not pay a cent because it would be supporting a practice that demeans women and etc.

I am not too sure about how your FW (future wife) and her family view the practice and standard of the Chinese dowry. In olden days in China (from my understanding), a dowry was paid to act as a compensation to the woman's family for taking away a member of the family who could have contributed to the care and upkeep of the family. Brides back then, once married, belonged strictly to their husband's family and in some cases, were not even allowed to simply return home for a visit, send gifts and such without the husband's permission. Hence why a dowry is paid. The money would also be used to help the bride with wedding preparations like a celebration on the bride's side, jewellery for the bride's safekeeping (she usually has nothing unless her HB gives her gifts and money - so it's like an insurance, so to speak) and so forth.

Over time, the Chinese dowry has transformed into monies used to help prepare for the wedding - at least that's how it is in my family and with my parents. BUT there are still parents out there who feel that they should be compensated for the upbringing of a productive adult who would have focused her energies entirely on the care of her parents compared to if she were to marry. Yes, it may sound ridiculous to a degree...and even insulting or demeaning but it is entirely cultural. Women are still considered to be disassociated from their parents once they are married and while we may retain our maiden names (unlike European counterparts who take on their husband's names upon marriage), our "severed" ties are less visible.

While in the end my mum relented on the issue of how much (partly also because my HB wasn't exactly swimming in gold), it didn't help that people around her assumed that he is rich and therefore, she should milk him dry PLUS they seem to equate dowry with the worth of a person (if the person getting married is highly educated, and so forth, the dowry should be higher and etc). I had to brainwash my mother regularly into accepting the fact that what they think is ridiculous and that when she takes away money from my HB, she is actually taking money away from me.

I told my HB the amount that your FMIL (future mother-in-law) asked for and he freaked out. (My mum settled for RM8K on top of the angpau taken from tables and etc - I think (it has been a while). Her initial request was higher...@.@)

To be honest, £4K is a lot of money, even for a Brit whom everyone thinks is swimming in money because he earns in £. (Idiotic notion, if you ask me.) Where is your fiancee's stand in this? Because like it or not, she doesn't have the luxury of not doing anything. Unlike the other girls here who married within their ethnic group (less hassle, IMHO, when it comes to things like this), having an angmoh fiance means she has to step up and act as the middle person, bridging the gap between not just two families but two cultures and ultimately two worlds.

I don't know if she has tried to negotiate or reasoned with her mother but if she hasn't, I feel that she shouldn't just tell you that you "must keep her (your FMIL) happy". What the point in giving away money on the pretext of compensating someone when you're going to end up bleeding all over the place? In other words, like my HB said, whatever your FMIL takes from you, she takes from her own daughter. Will that make her (your FMIL) happy?

Frankly, have a chat with your fiancee about this. I'm sure the whole issue isn't over the fact that you have to give your FMIL money but that it's a large sum, which at times like this (with the economic downturn and all), no one can afford to burn just like that. Since she has been living in the UK for the last 5 years, I'm sure she is aware of the living costs and how expensive things can be plus how fragile the economic situation is for many people. Perhaps she could consider all those things before saying "we must make her happy".

Also, tell her to remind her mother that even though she's so far away from home, it doesn't mean that her mother has lost a daugther. Remind her that she will not just be keeping her daugther but gaining a son in the process.

Hope this helps and good luck! (If you like, I can ask my HB to share his experiences with you and such...so you can get his side of the story on how to tackle the issue as well...)

[MarkG 0]

well different folks, different strokes.

u can checkout what other couples are paying and whats being discussed on dowry and related stuff at these links:

http://www.malaysiabrides.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=595

pin kam = dowry in chinese

http://www.malaysiabrides.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=458

GDL/guo dai lai = the engagement(??) ceremony, where the groom bring gifts, cash n other customary stuff to ask for the brides hand in marriage.

btw RM20k+ is seriously a large sum x.x

Dear Juvannise, Aisumono and Meiteoh

Thank you for your replies.

Aisumano - thanks for the interesting links - yes everything points to RM 20k being OTT (Over the Top)

Juvannise - True I do not want to pay out £9999 ! but RM 9999 would be better :)

Meiteoh - thank you again for your very full reply and remembering me! We are getting married in the UK on the 25th of this month - her mother arrives 8 days before!

I do believe she is giving my FW some jewellery but as for all other wedding costs that's down to me. We have about 90 guests attending - mainly gweilos! but maybe about 20 chinese who could bring red enveloppes. Could the mother in law try and take these too!?

My FMIL actually lives in New York. I see that 3999 is a popular number. I have asked my FW why this number can't be paid in $US dollars as that would take it down to about RM 14k but my FW does not seem to want to face her mother on the matter.

However from what I read negotiating on this figure seems to be acceptable practice? Or is it insulting?

As you say from my perspective we are handing out money that we may need for the future and maybe for her(the FMIL) grandchildren. We do not know what the future will hold in this economic climate and as you will appreciate I am paying for the whole wedding, and 3 week honeymoon in Malaysia and Thailand, and that she taking money from her own daughter. If I was marrying an English girl then the tradition is that her parents pay for the wedding ..not me. I of course would never propose any help from her parents.

Yes I do not think she has lost a daughter, they have lived apart for at least 15 years, so I do not see that things will change greatly when her daughter is married.

When I try to bring this subject up with my FW it does not go down well which is a shame as really as you say she should be helping to bridge the culture gap.

Thanks for your help

Mark

[chaileen 0]

Mark,

I'm think your FW don't want to make thing worse. Actually £3,999 is worth to pay if you don't want your FW get into difficulty situation.

For your information, my case is slightly better than you. The dowry my dad ask for (S$9,999.00 = RM23K+) will be give back to me on the day i married (I'm personally ask my dad on dowry matter w/o my FH presented) but that make my FH headache because he's monthly income only S$2K+ less other expenses...imagine how much he left a month? Luckily, i did ask him to save 25% of his monthly salary 6 yrs ago so after i delay our wedding ceremony from Feb'09 to Sept'09 hopefully he can manage to save S$9,999.00 by then but there still other wedding costs we need to pay our own :wacko3: and of course I'll pay all the expenses of bride side and he's pay for the groom side (w/o they knowledge)

[meiteoh 0]

Mark, by right, she cannot take the gifts (cash or otherwise) given to you by guests from your family and friends. That's not the practice. As the bride's parent, she only has "control" over angpaus or cash gifts given by people SHE invited like family and her friends, etc. Whatever the groom receives from his friends and family plus whatever the bride receives from her friends are theirs to keep.

Well, the negotiating part is why I suggest that your FW steps in as well because that's her mother and she would know how to best tackle her. Yes, it's not an easy task - when it comes to money, nothing is ever easy - but look at it this way, if your FW can't face one problem like this, what does it say about the future problems that you both may face as a couple? This whole wedding, pin kam thing and all isn't just about how much YOU pay but about your journey together as a couple. Being put in a difficult situation is something you both will go through in a marriage. So better start getting used to it BEFORE you head down the aisle.

For me, I knew my HB could pay what my mum originally asked for but I refused to let it be for the sake of "making her happy" or "not making life difficult for myself" because I'd rather both parties be satisfied with the outcome than one be happy and the other be...dissatisfied...especially if it's my HB. Like my own parents say, I'm not going to spend the rest of my life with my mother but my HB.

Anyway, can you share a little as to how and what you mean by it not going down well when you speak to your FW about it? What are her reasons about from the generic "make her happy"? I think there is more to it than meets the eye especially now that you've mentioned that they have been living apart from 15 years.

[juvannise 0]

i would suggest a peace talk since UK economy is doing badly and everyone is scared of losing their job.. it may not happened to you but be safe better than sorry. frankly speaking if u r fine with 3,999 then go ahead with it, if not, then u should voice out.

[welwong 0]

I'm facing a similar situation... however my fiance is an Aussie Chinese-Malaysian.

My mum said she will be asking for the 'ping kam' as it is a cultural tradition that must be followed (the parents have met only once but it was not the right time to bring up the subject). However my fiance had a quick chat to his mum, and she reckons she is 'too modern' for such a tradition. My mum however thinks that as my fiance's parents are Chinese, they should be following the Chinese tradition too, and if she doesn't she will not pursue the matter but will 'look down' on them as she thinks that is pure 'stinginess'.

I guess it makes it slightly harder given that we are both of the same culture, but FPIL does not wish to follow the tradition whereas my parents would prefer to. It's tough mediating between the two as both parents are equally as stubborn.