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Tash

Unethical or just plain rude??

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OK first let me clarify that it's not my wedding that I am planning for, but it is my sister's. She is very busy with work, and thus I have helped her to liaise with photographers and other vendors for her wedding via email. I have been asking for quotes from several PGs, and my sister and her fiancee have met up with a few PGs.

My question is this:

Let's say after meeting up with a certain PG, and telling him/her that hey, let me take some time to decide on whether or not I should hire you. In the meantime, the said PG accepts a job by another client on your date without having the courtesy to call you up first and ask you: Hi Miss X, I have another client who is interested in booking me on the same day as your AD. Do you think you can let me know whether or not you have decided to pick me?

Instead, this PG who is now quite highly rated went ahead and accepted another client without first asking my sister for a confirmation. I am so pissed.

FYI Here is the timeline

First email sent out June 7th asking for quote

PG replies on June 8th.

My sis then replies, asking for a meetup, meetup takes place on June 20th. During the meetup, my sis requests for some finer details from the PG to be emailed to her. She doesn't get a reply. Sis sends a nice reminder email to PG to ask for the extra details on June 28th. PG replies weith details on June 29th. Sis confirms that she would like to book PG for her AD on July 7th. PG replies on June 8th saying that she/he has been booked on the evening part of that day!

While I totally understand that my sis has not booked the said PG, HOW CAN THIS PG TAKE UP ANOTHER JOB on that said day without first asking my sis???? Now, all our research and planning has gone down the drain. I am so disappointed in this PG coz I like his/her work, and I'm even a follower on his/her Facebook page.

PGs out there, this is not a world of "siapa cepat, dia dapat". This is not a game we're talking about, we are talking business, where the least you can do is be frigging courteous to at least let us know beforehand. I was so looking forward to this PGs work, and here I am, ending up with a complaint about the said person.

What is your take on this situation?

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hmm, i have yet to get a PG myself as my dates are not set yet but as far as I know, PG is on a 1st come, 1st serve basis. As some famous ones have loads of clients on waitlist but other brides who have book PG might be able to give you more of their take on this :)

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Can't really blame the PG - unless you have paid deposit, then it's different case. To them, they can't take your words seriously (they receive so many queries) until you pay deposit.

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It's like that lah in Malaysia . Most vendors dont' really give a courtesy call to all the enquiries as there are too many of them.

Hotel bookings on the other hand are different as normally they give you a wait period before they release your tentative booking.

Generally speaking, I think this is how vendors should work, ethically. But unfortunately humans are greedy and have this 'I WANT MY MONEY NOW!' mentality.

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Yea, while I acknowledge the fact that we didnt BOOK this particular PG, and that they are on a first come, first serve basis, I dont understand WHY this PG couldn't have simply called my sis up first, or sent her an email. If you see the timeline I wrote, it was only a span of one week between the last email from the PG and the date that my sis sent the PG an email to confirm her booking.

The worse part was, this PG actually specifically told my sis to "take your time, think carefully, look at other PG's styles first to see which style you like". If someone were to tell you this, of course you'd think highly of him/her and not expect her to suddenly go and take up some other client's job.

It wasn't like my sis sent an email, met up and didnt follow up. It was the PG WHO WAS LATE in providing the extra details thru email till my sis has to send a reminder email.

Then, after that email was sent, and my sis agreed to booking the PG, tiba-tiba the PG booked already. :sauer2: Man, a lot of these wedding vendors ought to go back to Fundamentals of Marketing & PR 101!

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What to do, all these vendors are so popular and high in demand that they don't really need your business.

They can get business from so many other couples that's why they treat all couples like that. It is indeed a 'Siapa cepat, dia dapat' mentality. But don't worry, good thing it's only just a PG and there are many other talented photographers out there who don't get enough credit for their work because they don't know how to market themselves.

Imagine if you're trying to secure a hotel venue on a popular wedding date, now that would be a real nightmare....

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No matter how popular our Live Bands are, we ALWAYS inform our clients whenever other couples want to hire us for the same date. The 1st come 1st served applies...which to us means "Whoever enquired 1st from us gets the 1st priority".

However.........if the 1st client still does not take immediate action and give us the 50% Confirmation fee to secure us...we will proceed with the 2nd couple who is all set to give us that. We have done our part by informing the 1st couple FIRST.

There are so many good PG's in Malaysia...not just him. So even if he didnt bother to inform you....you didnt lose anything!

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Well let's give the story an extreme twist so that we add a little logic to it.

Let's say he met up with 30 couples to discuss about `possible' engagement of his service and then

the 31st client confirm with them on the spot.

If you were him, would you say hold on I can't promise you first....let me first call the first 30 clients I've met

then if they don't want to have me as their PG, I will now resort to you.

One, the 31st customer may feel " so what now my business means nothing to you compared to that first

30th?" Now the very potential customer might be pissed or slightly offended with him/her.

Two, the fact that he is seeing other client to discuss about possibilities...already prove that he is ready to accept another

one before you confirm. Or do you think he should reject other calls and tell them he/she is under a discussion with you currently hence

he is unable to see you and he needs to call up to ask for your permission first to see another client?

Be kind to them as well, though yea they may be photographer, business people, etc...but they're also human looking for money

so that they get to eat and/or feed their family. They are not lower than us just because they are going to be hired by us.

So looking back at the initial story, let's reverse that if you previously spoke to 30 clients who said they "may" hire you,

and the 31st one comes and confirm with you immediately....would you first call the first 30 customer to inform them first?

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No matter how popular our Live Bands are, we ALWAYS inform our clients whenever other couples want to hire us for the same date. The 1st come 1st served applies...which to us means "Whoever enquired 1st from us gets the 1st priority".

However.........if the 1st client still does not take immediate action and give us the 50% Confirmation fee to secure us...we will proceed with the 2nd couple who is all set to give us that. We have done our part by informing the 1st couple FIRST.

There are so many good PG's in Malaysia...not just him. So even if he didnt bother to inform you....you didnt lose anything!

Btw amanda_angels, I believe I have sent you a PM long ago, clarifying that my wedding is next year, yet you have not provided me with quotation...

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Well let's give the story an extreme twist so that we add a little logic to it.

Let's say he met up with 30 couples to discuss about `possible' engagement of his service and then

the 31st client confirm with them on the spot.

If you were him, would you say hold on I can't promise you first....let me first call the first 30 clients I've met

then if they don't want to have me as their PG, I will now resort to you.

One, the 31st customer may feel " so what now my business means nothing to you compared to that first

30th?" Now the very potential customer might be pissed or slightly offended with him/her.

Two, the fact that he is seeing other client to discuss about possibilities...already prove that he is ready to accept another

one before you confirm. Or do you think he should reject other calls and tell them he/she is under a discussion with you currently hence

he is unable to see you and he needs to call up to ask for your permission first to see another client?

Be kind to them as well, though yea they may be photographer, business people, etc...but they're also human looking for money

so that they get to eat and/or feed their family. They are not lower than us just because they are going to be hired by us.

So looking back at the initial story, let's reverse that if you previously spoke to 30 clients who said they "may" hire you,

and the 31st one comes and confirm with you immediately....would you first call the first 30 customer to inform them first?

Citibankvisa, If I had the good fortune to have 30 other clients who had made enquiries beforehand, and number 31 wants to book me on the spot, I would have sent out an email to the 30 to say that I have been booked already on your date, thank you for your interest blah blah.... Of course, 30 enquiries is a lot, thus calling them up one by one to ask whether or not they are still interested may be rather difficult. The idea is to NOT leave your customers in the lurch, thinking that their potential PG is still available, when in actual fact, he/she is no longer available on yr AD.

But, as I reiterated many times, it was a span of ONE WEEK between the PGs email and my sister's confirmation. 30 enquiries in one week, and #31 wants to book? I think not. I would have sent out the email to the "30 enquiries" only if they had enquired and not followed up after that. I reiterate again, my sis did meet up wth the PG, followed up with emails etc. She was genuinely interested, and if I had genuine potential clients, I think I would call them up, and not just shoot off an email, for the sake of being courteous. Even if that means calling up 30 customers. (but of course, out of 30, probably only 5-6 are REALLY interested and would have followed up).

PLUS, if you were to go to hotels to make a banquet booking, this is how they work, the first person who made the enquiry on that particular date is usually contacted first and told that there is another enquiry on that particular date.

This has nothing to do with "being kind" or PG's being "lower" than us. Heck I think this PG earns 5-10 times more than us; financially speaking he/she is much "higher" than us! Being nice IMHO is rather irrelevant. The PG was late in replying our emails, and we were "nice" to send a very gentle reminder email. If you're talking about being "nice", since we were "nice" to the PG in that way, he/she should have been nice back to us. No? :cool:

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its always easier say than manage i would say especially to remember all the dates for those potential that you are meeting vs those that who is serious in booking.

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PGs out there, this is not a world of "siapa cepat, dia dapat". This is not a game we're talking about, we are talking business, where the least you can do is be frigging courteous to at least let us know beforehand. I was so looking forward to this PGs work, and here I am, ending up with a complaint about the said person.

What is your take on this situation?

My take is...move on. Life is way too short to worry about this. If no money has exchanged hands there is no contract.

I usually call people back if I think are serious, and have actually MET them, as my wedding interviews are fairly intensive and we get to know each other really well. I called a couple this morning to let them know I was booked by an earlier client, but there are times I have called people who seemed dead keen on me, only to find out they had moved on and booked another photographer...and they had the audacity to do it without informing me !?!?!?!?!??! :cool:

I hope you see the point. It is NICE when someone goes the extra mile...but common courtesy is not that common anymore...perhaps it never was.

As most of the popular photographers are inundated with inquiries it may be a bit much to expect them to call back every inquiry.

You are disappointed but keep looking. There are lots of photographers out there. Running through it again and again in your mind is just going to poison the whole excitement of the wedding.

My 2 sen

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Fact is if anyone here have discussed with 30 potential photographers and at the end of the day confirmed with some other photographers, I don't believe there will be anyone kind enough to call up all 30 to tell all photographers that they have engaged someone, and thank them for their time.

They'll just let the photographer chase and chase until they secure someone to safeguard their photographer. Humans are basically selfish, but some selfish people can see what they are doing, some just lack the ability to empathize for another. The lack of that quality is pointless being talked about because there is no way there is any point of realization irregardless of how much logic.

Agreed with WFP, its best to move on. At the end, the one holding grudges is the one that is deemed at lost and narrow hearted. No point doing that for someone you barely know.

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Have moved on, and in fact have booked and paid for another PG. Better price, and seemingly better pics too. Then again, we've learnt to wait and see what the final outcome would be like.

We sent out lots of enquiries, and yes, we even sent out "thank-you but we have to decline your quote" emails too :)

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I think we're missing one point here - it's not good business acumen to ignore emails even if it means having to email 30 different people to tell them the same thing (that you're booked/sick/etc). It is not even common courtesy anymore; if people want to use the excuse that common courtesy doesn't exist, then they should stick to life as an employee and don't open a shop. For business owners and service providers, it is professional to keep people in the loop, be it a prospective customer or a supplier or former customer.

If you're looking for a case in point re the person who calls up 30 photographers, well, I have contacted several photographers for photoshoots (wedding/baby) and I've actually emailed them to tell them that I've changed my mind. I do the same with insurance agents as well. But hey, that's just me. :smile:

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For me, its a common thing in business which is, you need to book for a service then only you will be given a reservation for the dates. Meaning, you need to at least provide a deposit of some kind to book the date. If I am the businessman, I cannot simply reserve a slot for you simply to wait for you to decide if you want my service unless you can justify with a booking fee RM X which I think might cover for the loss of business in case you suddenly decide you doesnt need my service where the deposit will be deemed burnt. Yes, you can take your own sweet time but ... this is at your own expense aka I might be booked when you Finally decide. So, make your decision fast ~~ Unless you specifically tell that you are really interested on the service and will be coming with the booking on XXX dates. Then maybe I will tell others that its booked tho you have not paid up the deposit yet coz you already indicated your genuine interest to hire me.

Regardless how many days or weeks it is. Just like renting a house or a room. You are looking for a place to rent and you visits 10 different house. It's common understanding for the ppl who lease or rent the place that they are open to rent to others till i can confirm with a booking aka the 1st month rental which in this case is the reservation fee. Once they receive this fee, they will stop looking for ppl. If i decided that I don't want that house anymore, then the deposit is deemed burnt. I will also NOT be calling each house to tell them i already found a place coz its common understanding that IF i am interested, I would have dropped a deposit. It have happened many times where by the time i decided i want the said room/ house, it has been taken by others who beat me to the deposits.

On my personal point of view, I think its unfair for me to ask someone to hold a slot for me without me committing anything at all. Especially when this is a business transaction, we are potential customers but for them, as long as no one made any payment or deposit, we are just "Potential" customers. They cannot be holding the date just for you to decide weather you want them or not. IF 10 customers do this to them on different dates, mati la ....

However, like what some of you have shared, it would have been a value add for the photographers to actually feedback and ask their potential customers if they still want to hire him/her or not. This is nice courtesy which we cannot expect everyone to observe. Regardless how we rant and @#$# , we can't force others to observe this. This comes from within = ) If a businesman is smart, he would provide good customer service with proper feed back.

You cant do anything about it ... other than, find a smart businesman !!!

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For me, its a common thing in business which is, you need to book for a service then only you will be given a reservation for the dates. Meaning, you need to at least provide a deposit of some kind to book the date. If I am the businessman, I cannot simply reserve a slot for you simply to wait for you to decide if you want my service unless you can justify with a booking fee RM X which I think might cover for the loss of business in case you suddenly decide you doesnt need my service where the deposit will be deemed burnt. Yes, you can take your own sweet time but ... this is at your own expense aka I might be booked when you Finally decide. So, make your decision fast ~~ Unless you specifically tell that you are really interested on the service and will be coming with the booking on XXX dates. Then maybe I will tell others that its booked tho you have not paid up the deposit yet coz you already indicated your genuine interest to hire me.

Regardless how many days or weeks it is. Just like renting a house or a room. You are looking for a place to rent and you visits 10 different house. It's common understanding for the ppl who lease or rent the place that they are open to rent to others till i can confirm with a booking aka the 1st month rental which in this case is the reservation fee. Once they receive this fee, they will stop looking for ppl. If i decided that I don't want that house anymore, then the deposit is deemed burnt. I will also NOT be calling each house to tell them i already found a place coz its common understanding that IF i am interested, I would have dropped a deposit. It have happened many times where by the time i decided i want the said room/ house, it has been taken by others who beat me to the deposits.

On my personal point of view, I think its unfair for me to ask someone to hold a slot for me without me committing anything at all. Especially when this is a business transaction, we are potential customers but for them, as long as no one made any payment or deposit, we are just "Potential" customers. They cannot be holding the date just for you to decide weather you want them or not. IF 10 customers do this to them on different dates, mati la ....

However, like what some of you have shared, it would have been a value add for the photographers to actually feedback and ask their potential customers if they still want to hire him/her or not. This is nice courtesy which we cannot expect everyone to observe. Regardless how we rant and @#$# , we can't force others to observe this. This comes from within = ) If a businesman is smart, he would provide good customer service with proper feed back.

You cant do anything about it ... other than, find a smart businesman !!!

Very true. Your points are all valid. Only thing is, we would have paid IF the said photographer had a booking policy. There was no policy regarding that matter at all.

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I think we're missing one point here - it's not good business acumen to ignore emails even if it means having to email 30 different people to tell them the same thing (that you're booked/sick/etc). It is not even common courtesy anymore; if people want to use the excuse that common courtesy doesn't exist, then they should stick to life as an employee and don't open a shop. For business owners and service providers, it is professional to keep people in the loop, be it a prospective customer or a supplier or former customer.

If you're looking for a case in point re the person who calls up 30 photographers, well, I have contacted several photographers for photoshoots (wedding/baby) and I've actually emailed them to tell them that I've changed my mind. I do the same with insurance agents as well. But hey, that's just me. :smile:

My sentiments exactly.

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